Political Forums

FedUpAmerican · 09-06-2007, 10:07 AM

Is abortion murder?

No. Absolutely not.

It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue, then, that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child, so it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being.

Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older.

Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part.

But that doesn't stop religious fanatics from dumping their judgements and their anger on top of women who choose to exercise the right to control their bodies. It's the ultimate irony that people who claim to represent a loving God resort to scare tactics and fear to support their mistaken beliefs.
It's even worse when you consider that most women who have an abortion have just made the most difficult decision of their life. No one thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. No one tries to get pregnant just so they can terminate it. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son. It's hard enough as it is. Women certainly don't need others telling them it's a murder.

It's not.

On the contrary, abortion is an absolutely moral choice for any woman wishing to control her body.

Silverchild79 · 09-06-2007, 10:09 AM

this is a "social Issue" more then a religious issue, moved

FedUpAmerican · 09-06-2007, 10:16 AM

Okey-Dokey

crackface_mcgee · 09-06-2007, 06:13 PM

Fed Up,

How do you define an independent person? A child outside of the womb, carried to full term? Do you think there should be restrictions on how far along in a woman's pregnancy an abortion should be allowed? 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions - partial birth abortion, dilation and extraction, whatever you want to call it - is a procedure that most Americans...including most of the women I know, strongly oppose. This is a summary of the procedure (from About.com):

Specific steps in the most commonly used partial-birth abortion procedure, Dilation and Extraction, are:

1. A medical professional induces a breech (feet first) delivery with forceps.
2. Legs, arms and torso of the fetus are delivered (i.e. expelled from the mother).
3. The back of the fetus' skull is punctured with a scissors-like instrument.
4. A suction device is inserted into the skull.
5. The device sunctions out the contents of the fetus' skull, causing the skull to collapse.
6. The lifeless fetus is delivered.

I fully agree with the ban on this. The reasons I feel this way should be obvious if you read the above description. Where do you stand?

aaronssongs · 09-06-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally stated by crackface_mcgee

Fed Up,

How do you define an independent person? A child outside of the womb, carried to full term? Do you think there should be restrictions on how far along in a woman's pregnancy an abortion should be allowed? 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions - partial birth abortion, dilation and extraction, whatever you want to call it - is a procedure that most Americans...including most of the women I know, strongly oppose. This is a summary of the procedure (from About.com):

Specific steps in the most commonly used partial-birth abortion procedure, Dilation and Extraction, are:

1. A medical professional induces a breech (feet first) delivery with forceps.
2. Legs, arms and torso of the fetus are delivered (i.e. expelled from the mother).
3. The back of the fetus' skull is punctured with a scissors-like instrument.
4. A suction device is inserted into the skull.
5. The device sunctions out the contents of the fetus' skull, causing the skull to collapse.
6. The lifeless fetus is delivered.

I fully agree with the ban on this. The reasons I feel this way should be obvious if you read the above description. Where do you stand?

Where I stand is it should be the case of last resort...
First of all, I believe that there are enough aids in the public arena to safely prevent unwanted pregnancies.
Second, I believe that counseling should be available to pregnant women and girls, to find out what is best for them and their condition. I say condition because , I , personally, don't believe that an embyro is human life, endowed with any rights, until it is "viable"...meaning that it can exist "outside of the mother's womb, with proper care, usually around 6th month of gestation.
Ultimately, I believe the decision to carry a embyro to term or to abort rest solely with the woman or girl, involved
See link: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/feb/07022003.html
Third, I think abortion for any reason should be done well before this time.
The only time I believe abortion should be attempted after this time, is to preserve the life of the mother.
In any event, it should be the route of last resort.

FedUpAmerican · 09-06-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally stated by crackface_mcgee

Fed Up,

How do you define an independent person? A child outside of the womb, carried to full term?

Yes I do.

Quote:

Do you think there should be restrictions on how far along in a woman's pregnancy an abortion should be allowed? 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions - partial birth abortion, dilation and extraction, whatever you want to call it - is a procedure that most Americans...including most of the women I know, strongly oppose.

I agree. I don't know much about the actual procedure itself but I believe there should be SOME limitations and medical control.

Quote:

This is a summary of the procedure (from About.com):

Specific steps in the most commonly used partial-birth abortion procedure, Dilation and Extraction, are:

1. A medical professional induces a breech (feet first) delivery with forceps.
2. Legs, arms and torso of the fetus are delivered (i.e. expelled from the mother).
3. The back of the fetus' skull is punctured with a scissors-like instrument.
4. A suction device is inserted into the skull.
5. The device sunctions out the contents of the fetus' skull, causing the skull to collapse.
6. The lifeless fetus is delivered.

I fully agree with the ban on this. The reasons I feel this way should be obvious if you read the above description. Where do you stand?

So far I'm right with you. I think I stated before that I didn't think it should be used for birth control but I do think that it should remain legal just for a safety factor. Lets face it, legal or not, if someone wants an abortion they're going to find a way to get one. I would prefer seeing this done under professional medical supervision.

tvsej · 09-07-2007, 10:23 AM

There are some previous posts somewhere about how in some states if you injure a pregnant women and the baby dies or you accidently kill a pregnant women you will be charged with a double murder. Our own laws don't agree with each other. Some states ( not in the Bible Belt) say you can have an abortion and others say you can't. Abortion isn't murder if a Dr. does it but it is if a pregnant women is accidently killed by a driver (not a drunk driver, different issue) Confusion all the time, keep em guessing is what our gov. does to us no set line its made up as we go it seems.

bizkit · 09-07-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally stated by tvsej

There are some previous posts somewhere about how in some states if you injure a pregnant women and the baby dies or you accidently kill a pregnant women you will be charged with a double murder. Our own laws don't agree with each other. Some states ( not in the Bible Belt) say you can have an abortion and others say you can't. Abortion isn't murder if a Dr. does it but it is if a pregnant women is accidently killed by a driver (not a drunk driver, different issue) Confusion all the time, keep em guessing is what our gov. does to us no set line its made up as we go it seems.

You took the words right out of my mouth! I was about to say that it amazes me how a life can "not be a life" if you choose to abort it....but if someone murders the woman, then they are guilty of 2 Murders!
There needs to be a stand on this.
I do not believe in abortion for the record.

tvsej · 09-08-2007, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally stated by bizkit

You took the words right out of my mouth! I was about to say that it amazes me how a life can "not be a life" if you choose to abort it....but if someone murders the woman, then they are guilty of 2 Murders!
There needs to be a stand on this.
I do not believe in abortion for the record.

Me either, as a personal choice.

09-06-2007, 10:07 AM	#1
FedUpAmerican On Vacation Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 588	Abortion Is abortion murder? No. Absolutely not. It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue, then, that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child, so it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being. Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part. But that doesn't stop religious fanatics from dumping their judgements and their anger on top of women who choose to exercise the right to control their bodies. It's the ultimate irony that people who claim to represent a loving God resort to scare tactics and fear to support their mistaken beliefs. It's even worse when you consider that most women who have an abortion have just made the most difficult decision of their life. No one thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. No one tries to get pregnant just so they can terminate it. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son. It's hard enough as it is. Women certainly don't need others telling them it's a murder. It's not. On the contrary, abortion is an absolutely moral choice for any woman wishing to control her body. Last edited by FedUpAmerican : 09-06-2007 at 10:15 AM.

09-06-2007, 10:09 AM	#2
Silverchild79 Paul is done Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,084	Re: Abortion this is a "social Issue" more then a religious issue, moved __________________ L-Ron Paul is kinda like L Ron Hubbard They speak in fiction, and those who support them are usually crazy

09-06-2007, 10:16 AM	#3
FedUpAmerican On Vacation Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 588	Re: Abortion Okey-Dokey

09-06-2007, 06:13 PM	#4
crackface_mcgee (_!_) Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 133	Re: Abortion Fed Up, How do you define an independent person? A child outside of the womb, carried to full term? Do you think there should be restrictions on how far along in a woman's pregnancy an abortion should be allowed? 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions - partial birth abortion, dilation and extraction, whatever you want to call it - is a procedure that most Americans...including most of the women I know, strongly oppose. This is a summary of the procedure (from About.com): Specific steps in the most commonly used partial-birth abortion procedure, Dilation and Extraction, are: 1. A medical professional induces a breech (feet first) delivery with forceps. 2. Legs, arms and torso of the fetus are delivered (i.e. expelled from the mother). 3. The back of the fetus' skull is punctured with a scissors-like instrument. 4. A suction device is inserted into the skull. 5. The device sunctions out the contents of the fetus' skull, causing the skull to collapse. 6. The lifeless fetus is delivered. I fully agree with the ban on this. The reasons I feel this way should be obvious if you read the above description. Where do you stand?

09-07-2007, 10:23 AM	#7
tvsej tvsej Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 374	Re: Abortion There are some previous posts somewhere about how in some states if you injure a pregnant women and the baby dies or you accidently kill a pregnant women you will be charged with a double murder. Our own laws don't agree with each other. Some states ( not in the Bible Belt) say you can have an abortion and others say you can't. Abortion isn't murder if a Dr. does it but it is if a pregnant women is accidently killed by a driver (not a drunk driver, different issue) Confusion all the time, keep em guessing is what our gov. does to us no set line its made up as we go it seems.

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