Political Forums

marcus · 09-13-2008, 10:51 PM

The Crusades
I did a review in the Books section of By Thomas F. Madden "Crusades" but also want to add additional information here.
Some interesting points:

1) It's started with a speech of Urban ll, in France, his homeland in 1095 at the council of Clermont, to go and help Eastern church against Arabs and Turks
2) The call was enforced by using the Bible with versus like "Pick up your cross and follow me", and "deny yourself" and they sew a cross on their garments to show their commitment to follow God's will.
3) People accepted and wanted to the "voyage" or "pilgrimage" immediately. The pilgrimage considered to be complete by stepping on the Holy Land. It's only later in 13 century people to start calling Crusades, before that it was a pilgrimage.
3) Anyone who wanted to go will take a vow, canceling the vow would means to get excommunicated from the Church.
5) It was understood that crusades expressed their love to God by "literally" following God.

6) The voyage starts with taking pilgrims' vow. This was taken in public, before the bishop or a priest, and it marked the formal beginning of the pilgrimage. Upon return, it would be the same bishop or priest who declared the vow fulfilled, marking the person's return to normal life.
After vow the pilgrimage had begun. Most people set out in the very same hour. The priest blessed a pilgrim, who made his vow, listing specifically which shrines he intended to visit. This was the specific contract of the pilgrimage--it was a promise to go to particular places. The blessing would be followed by a sermon and a mass. Departing a pilgrim would join another group since people almost never travelled alone. Sometimes, a great many people set out together, and the blessing ceremony became an event conducted for the whole group. The public nature of the ceremony ensured that the pilgrim himself knew that the pilgrimage had begun, and that the rest of the community knew it as well.
source:Virtual Pilgrimage - start in France

Fatal_Freedoms · 09-14-2008, 02:07 AM

The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view.

Drnaline · 09-14-2008, 04:12 AM

If the Constitution said the same would it be just as dispicable?

Fatal_Freedoms · 09-14-2008, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally stated by Drnaline

If the Constitution said the same would it be just as dispicable?

yes.

Manifest destiny is what I suppose you are referring to, correct? Except it was never mentioned anywhere in the constitution.... It was a corrupt doctrine used to justify the most horrific acts under American rule.

marcus · 09-20-2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view.

It starting with a book of Genesis (12, 15, 17) where God promises Abraham to give him the land of Canaan. But the promise of that land is not standing alone promise. It has three parts in it, the land, the offspring which is Jesus Christ, and the blessing to all nations.
Unfortunately the other two parts are often forgoten and the focus is on the real estate itself. In ancient times the land of Canaan was not as valuable as the land of Egypt because of the irrigation system. The land of Canaan is depended on rains, where Egypt was bringing good crops because of Nile river. Therefore a contrast of dependence on God and natural ways of doing things.
All Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph believed that one day it will be fulfillment of the promise of the Land, Offspring, and Blessings in the land and where buried in the land. (Jacob and Joseph requested after their death to be buried in the land of Canaan and not in Egypt (Gen 49,50) )

How's it related to the Crusades? Crusaders fought for the land that ironically has no value (but hope) to Christianity or Judaism unless all promises are fulfilled, and they have not been fulfilled yet. There is one promise has been fulfilled God's bringing his nation to the land. It has been fulfilled after 1900 years of Israel nonexistence, and after 2700 yeas when the promise was given (Isaiah 43:5).

Crusaders where doing "God's work" that only God can do at His appointed time. That promise of the New Kingdom it's not conditioned on men actions at all. It's all done by might and power of Messiah (Zech 9, Rev 4).

Quote:

The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view.

I agree with you, it's not about a right for the land, but it's about fulfillment of all promises. But it's easier to focus on tangible than intangible such as faith.

Musky Hunter · 10-11-2008, 08:30 PM

Whenever someone mentions the "crusades", I like to ask "Which ones? The Christian or the Muslim Crusades?"

The Muslim Crusades preceded the Christian ones by several centuries and the Christian crusades were at least in part a response to the earlier crusades of the Muslims.

If one has questions about the above, all one has to do is study the history of the Moors in Spain as well as the history of the Christian slave trade along the North African Mediterranean

Fatal_Freedoms · 10-12-2008, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally stated by Musky Hunter

Whenever someone mentions the "crusades", I like to ask "Which ones? The Christian or the Muslim Crusades?"

The Muslim Crusades preceded the Christian ones by several centuries and the Christian crusades were at least in part a response to the earlier crusades of the Muslims.

If one has questions about the above, all one has to do is study the history of the Moors in Spain as well as the history of the Christian slave trade along the North African Mediterranean

Do you suggest the two are comparable?!

Musky Hunter · 10-12-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally stated by Fatal_Freedoms

Do you suggest the two are comparable?!

Do you suggest that it is not?

Fatal_Freedoms · 10-12-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally stated by Musky Hunter

Do you suggest that it is not?

yes.

There were at least 9 crusades! How many times did the moors invade spain? Also the scale of the crusades were much greater than the moorish conquest of southern spain.

09-13-2008, 10:51 PM	#1
marcus Christian Camp Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 211 Blog Entries: 1	The Crusades The Crusades I did a review in the Books section of By Thomas F. Madden "Crusades" but also want to add additional information here. Some interesting points: 1) It's started with a speech of Urban ll, in France, his homeland in 1095 at the council of Clermont, to go and help Eastern church against Arabs and Turks 2) The call was enforced by using the Bible with versus like "Pick up your cross and follow me", and "deny yourself" and they sew a cross on their garments to show their commitment to follow God's will. 3) People accepted and wanted to the "voyage" or "pilgrimage" immediately. The pilgrimage considered to be complete by stepping on the Holy Land. It's only later in 13 century people to start calling Crusades, before that it was a pilgrimage. 3) Anyone who wanted to go will take a vow, canceling the vow would means to get excommunicated from the Church. 5) It was understood that crusades expressed their love to God by "literally" following God. 6) The voyage starts with taking pilgrims' vow. This was taken in public, before the bishop or a priest, and it marked the formal beginning of the pilgrimage. Upon return, it would be the same bishop or priest who declared the vow fulfilled, marking the person's return to normal life. After vow the pilgrimage had begun. Most people set out in the very same hour. The priest blessed a pilgrim, who made his vow, listing specifically which shrines he intended to visit. This was the specific contract of the pilgrimage--it was a promise to go to particular places. The blessing would be followed by a sermon and a mass. Departing a pilgrim would join another group since people almost never travelled alone. Sometimes, a great many people set out together, and the blessing ceremony became an event conducted for the whole group. The public nature of the ceremony ensured that the pilgrim himself knew that the pilgrimage had begun, and that the rest of the community knew it as well. source:Virtual Pilgrimage - start in France

09-14-2008, 02:07 AM	#2
Fatal_Freedoms Of Logic and Liberty Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Michigan Posts: 4,511 Blog Entries: 1	Re: The Crusades The idea that someone thinks that god gave them a right to own a piece of land is despicable in my view. __________________ "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." *-Thomas jefferson*

09-14-2008, 04:12 AM	#3
Drnaline Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: La Villa real del la Santa Fe, NM Posts: 6,498	Re: The Crusades If the Constitution said the same would it be just as dispicable? __________________ “[A] wise and frugal government... shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” —Thomas Jefferson

10-11-2008, 08:30 PM	#6
Musky Hunter Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 208	Re: The Crusades Whenever someone mentions the "crusades", I like to ask "Which ones? The Christian or the Muslim Crusades?" The Muslim Crusades preceded the Christian ones by several centuries and the Christian crusades were at least in part a response to the earlier crusades of the Muslims. If one has questions about the above, all one has to do is study the history of the Moors in Spain as well as the history of the Christian slave trade along the North African Mediterranean Last edited by Musky Hunter : 10-11-2008 at 08:32 PM.

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